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Case 411- Torque Tube Fluid into Transmission Case

jim K The fluid within the torque tube is escaping into the Transmission Cas/Rear Axle Housing.

The rear axle housing fluid level is near the top of the dip stick-About six inches higher than the appropriate level, whereas the torque tube dip stick is not showing any fluid.

The prior owner said he filled it several times.

what would I have to fix in order for this to be corrected?

Any information would be appreciated. I have been viewing the Case IH parts diagrams so specific part names and numbers would be helpful.

Any information would be appreciated.

Larry If tractor has a 3 pt. hitch, the piston seal in top cover is probably leaking by, later machines had a cover plate ind small hose leading back to torque tube to catch any oil leaking past piston seal. I do not think the 411 had this pan.
Cover plate of diff is very heavy so be carefull of fingers Remove top cover, lift arms, shaft, and lift rod then piston. Check bore of housing for scoring. If too bad it may have to be sleeved at a machine shop. Larry

jim K More Details. I refilled the torque tube and ran the tractor for about five minutes. It moves fairly well in Reverse and First. The torque tube dip stick showed empty after about five minutes. It is escaping quickly.

I was not sure if I could fix the issue without spitting the tractor; I noticed in the parts diagram that there was a rear torque tube cover. My unit has the dual range gear.

Based on a review of the parts diagram, I am thinking that the below part may be the issue: G1027 COVER COVER - front transmission case (4 speed transmission only). I was not sure if the gasket for this has failed. I did not observe any seals within this assembly. I am still wondering if this can be services without spitting the tractor.

Larry Does this machine have a torque convertor?? Don't remember if they offered then. If so it is probably pumping oil thru the trans mainshaft into diff. Should have a plug in back of shaft, but you still have to remove top cover of diff to check
jim K Yes, it has a torque converter.

Are you saying that regardless if the issue is leakage thru the trans mainshaft into the diff or if there is leakage via the "hydraulic ram", that the first step is the removal of the main plate of the diff?

I appreciate the feedback.

jim K I noticed their is a hydraulic line that runs to the differential from the control valvue under the gas tank. I am assuming that this is connected to the "ram" within the differential to operate the three point.

As this is a "one way" hydraulic assembly, does this mean that in a functional system that the hydraulic fluid would move back to the control valve" when the level is released? Also, to clarify your suggestion, you are thinking that maybe that the "ram" is leaking. Could I not test this by not engaging the the "control valve" for the three point. Meaning that I could fill the torque tube with oil and run the tractor for a while without engaging the three point lift. If the three point is the issue, then the fluid should hold within the torque tube as I did not perform an action that would allow it to leak past the "faulty ram".

Larry Yes, if fluid is transferring that fast, then as long as tractor is on level ground,the only way oil can get into rear end is via shaft or leakage from piston in rear top cover of diff. There is a seal between torque tube and diff where mainshaft enters diff but it is above proper level of oil so tractor would have to be standing on its heels to leak into diff. Also a drain hole in upper r/h corner of housing but same would apply. If plug is out of shaft and that is the fault I would go ahead and reseal the lift cyl while its out Larry
Larry Yup, I guess you could say that. as long as lift arms stay down, there should be no pressure build up. and yes it is a one way system, pressure to lift arms, weight to lower
jim K the results were that the fluid held within the torque tube resevoir. Which I believe means that the "ram" is leaking into the differential resevoir.

Before I remove the plate, I want to be sure the tractor is sould. I am concerned that the previous owner may have logged several hours on it with the torque tube resevoir empty.

The tractor shifts into gears and the "clutch" seams to work OK. I noticed that I had to "grind" the gears the first I tried to shift it into gear from neutral.

Also, I noticed the converter pressure gauge only read about a quarter when it should read about half (the blue section of the guage).

Is there a way to adjust the "clutch" and also should I be concerned about the low pressure reading?

Any information would be appreciated.

jim K In general terms, is the "seal" similar to that of a hydraulic ram on a loader? I have rebuilt a few of those.

I have had good luck with the local hydraulic shop regarding parts for rams. Would this be an alternative to purchasing the parts from an IH dealer, or is the part specialized?

Any information would be appreciated.

Larry It is a 1 pc neoprene seal prox 7/16 wide and prox 7/16 thick. A real bear to install. May find at a hyd shop. S/B dimensional in size. Can't remember but older machines used a large O-ring and a back-up ring I think.
Larry There is an adjustment for both the clutch disconnect pedal and the t/c pressure regulator. So many things can effect he pressure readings from worn seal rings in convertor leaking off too much oil to not enough oil supply from pump,because it is worn or there is trash in the sump partially blocking suction tube, or the relief valve on pump is leaking off. or-or-or! assuming te gauge is correct!! Gears grinding could be from direct drive clutches being hot and warped or clutch disconnect pedal out of adjustment. whew so hard to pin-point. Just a process of elimination starting with a known gauge and doing a pressure check of pump first. but this will tell you only that it is building pressure, not if there is enough flow to make up for controlled leakage.
jim K Thanks. I posted this as a separate question, please just ignore it. I will use the information you just provided to start looking at the issue.

Would it be OK to operate it with the "low pressure"?

Jim K Is it OK to use this universal transmission fluid in the torque tube?

The fluid I tested the hydraulic fluid was from the differential; I am assuming that the diff fluid is a gear oil. Thus the fluid I used was a mixture of both. The previous owner said he used the universal fluid for both resevoirs.

Any information would be appreciated.

Larry If in fact the pressure is low I wouldn't recommend you doing too much with machine if you just wanted to move from 1 location to another. keep it in lower gears and do not use conv. lock up.
Larry Universal tractor fluid is OK for torque tube, 80/90 or 85/140 gear oil in differntial
jim K Is there a relationship between the low fluid level in the torque tube and the low pressure of the converter? Sorry for the basic question, but I do not know anything about torque converters, but I am assuming the assembly is "wet" and also assuming that the fluid that surrounds the assembly is from the torque tube resevoir.

The reason I ask is that I am sure the previous owner operated this unit for a few hours or more with no fluid in the torque tube?

Larry He would't have gone too far with no oil. And yes a low level could effect pressure but would have to be very low as bottom of suction tube for pump is just a few inches from the bottom of torque tube. and it holds prox 5 gallons of oil!
Jim K If I remove the housing adapter in which the control valve and pump is mounted, will the entire assembly lift from the torque tube?

I just want to make sure that I do not lose any pieces.

also, will the suction tube come out intact as well, or will I need to unbolt it from the pump?

Jim K I guess I am not sure where to start to try to determine the low pressure of the converter. The filter element in the front of the tractor is clean and recently replaced.

what would be my next first step to start to attempt to resolve the low pressure?

I notice the pressure reads about 20 pounds at the meter. When I depress the "clutch" is drops to practically nothing.

jim k Found this on the internet:

This is the same tractor and has about the same problems as mine:

I hope I am not to late to respond to your question. My dad had a 1957 Case
411B gas tractor and it was not very reliable. We had multiple problems with
the hydraulic system. The lift cylinder for the 3-point became scored and the
fluid would leak into the Case-o-Matic transmission. (I am assuming that the 411
you are talking about has Case-o-Matic?) I carried a 5-gallon bucket with in
the field and would drain hydraulic fluid from the transmission and pour it
into the hydraulic reservoir every 2 hours. A number of repairs were tried and
we finally had to replace the entire 3-point lift package to solve the problem.

It had a hydraulic clutch which defied adjustment and you could never shift
into gear without grinding. The support brackets for the 3-point lift arms
broke as they were underdesigned. Dad fabricated replacements that were much
stronger to correct that problem. The upper arm that the hitch swung on broke and
needed to be rewelded. The transmission gears did not stand up very well as I
observed when we pulled the shift assembly off the transmission for a repair.
Some of the gears were worn to sharp points when they should have been flat on
top. We did not abuse the tractor. It did not seem to be well designed.

Two years ago, my younger brother asked if our 411B had any distinguishing
marks that would identify it. He asked because a friend of his thought he may
have bought it. I gave him 4 items to look for and it was positively identified
as the one my dad had traded in about 40 years earlier. I had the opportunity
to drive it in a parade at our show that year (LRPTA in Dalton, MN). I
immediately remembered why I didn't like that particular tractor.

Larry Best way is to connect a flow meter directly to pump line but I presume you do not have access to that, so next would be a 300psi gauge and plumb it into input hose of filter (the hose that comes from the top cover plate of torque tube,not the one that goes back to control valve. hook gauge to hose directly, do not "T" into hose. start tractor at idle and read gauge. This will give you pump main relief setting. should be around 350 to 500 psi I think. although this will give pressure setting, but ill not indicate flow which is what you really need to know. If pressure is up you will want to check convertor press by teeing ito line. Convertor pressure is shim adjustable in control valve under tank. s/b prox 175 maybe 225 psi. can't remember excactly. will look up and let you know. if you can get pressure up to snuff then maybe you will be ok. Also first check to see that clutch cut-out is adjusted so the spool is in detent when engaged. This is just a few things you can check. If you shim convertor relief, check to make sure plunger is free. This system is extreemly hard to diagnose because so many things depend on the prior sys in line. One way down the line can effect the whole system Its all a guess without really knowing the flow of pump at relief pressure.
Jim K I may be able to get access to a flow meter (my father-in-law helps manage a automatic transmission shop). What at would be the specs of the meter?

for example, 1,000 psi's at 5 GPM.

Also, I reviewed the control valve plunger. When I engage the clutch petal the plunger indents into the control valve as expected.

Would the converter pressure meter provide the answer to your below suggestion: "Convertor pressure ... s/b prox 175 maybe 225 psi."

My gauge is reading about 25 psi's. The blue portion of the guage (the normal opeating pressure is 120 PSI's).

Jim K The pump relief setting is only 175PSI. I hooked a meter directly to the the hose that comes from the top cover plate of the torque tube. (I have the hunch this means that I will need to tear the unit apart as the pump output is insufficient. You mentioned that you believed the pressure should be somewhere around 350 to 500.) I guess thiere also could be an issue with the suction line???

I will provide the converter pressure by teeing into the line in a few hours; i have to go to the hardware store and buy a few pipe fittings.

Any additional information would be appreciated.

Jim K The pressure reading when teeing in at the same point was 175 PSI's. I am not sure what this means. Maybe there is blockage somewhere???

Ready for your next suggestion. Maybe test the PSI's at another point???

Jim K I teed in after the filter and fluid cooler/coil;
the pressure read about 75psi's.

So I bypasses those two components and the pressure rose back to about 150 to 175 psi's.

However, when I depressed the clutch (engaged the spool on the valve) the PSI dropped back to 75 psi's.

I could live with this, except the gears continue to grind.

Any guidance would be appreciated. Tractor will operate ok on this press as far as normal operation. Actually press to convertor itself is low, but press to direct drive clutch is where it will fall short. I think that is why you get a grind when you put in gear, as it (press) may have been low and possibly operated that way and was slipping, which would warp the clutch plates and make them drag. To remove convertor you must split at eng and then remove top cover of torque tube. Charge pump and p/u tube is bolted to underside of top cover. If you continue to operate, keep a check on t/c temp as flow may still be low. It's all a big guess
landon smith what type of oils do I use in:1963,case,540c,manual transmission.

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