Diesel starting problem

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Diesel starting problem

Jamie Rodger I have a Case 580c backhoe that refuses to start without using a shot of ether. It only does this when cold (but not that cold, 70F). I know it's getting fuel because when I open the bleed screw on the top fuel filter, fuel flows out. When it's turning over, but not starting, I can see black smoke puffing out of the exhaust but it just won't go without ether. Once it's warm, it'll start right away. Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated as I hear ether is very hard on a diesel. Thanks
AJ Sounds as if you engine has a bit of wear in it,have a look at the intake manifoild where the air filter intake pipe fits and see if there is a glow plug or a bung you can remove and fit a glow plug,have a word with your dealer they may do a kit,the ether is bad news.

Dave Whitcomb AJ- I have a similar situation with my 580C, except its white smoke while cranking. The motor has about 300 hours on a rebuild, but I haven't checked compression since it was done. Could injector pump timing cause this?
Redranch My 580c does the same thing but it will start when it is a little colder than that. Runs rough for awhile then clears out. Hope someone has a good reply to this problem.
Dave Whitcomb Just to provide specifics:

My tractor (77 Case 580C with the 207 in it) seems to start OK most of the time above 60 degrees F. Below that temperature, it will crank and produce white smoke while cranking. Occasionally it will start without ether between 45-50 degress but not often, and only after 30 seconds or more of cranking. It seems the cranking speed is OK, maybe a bit slow. When it won't fire, I give it a very short burst of ether that has cylinder lube in it. Once it catches, it will run a little rough for a few seconds and then it smooths out. It does produce some blueish colored smoke after it starts cold, but not excessive and it clears up in a minute or two. It starts and runs fine after it has been running. Fuel filters are regularly changed. There is no motor oil usage that I can tell - the level is fine between oil changes. If I can provide any further info, let me know.

Thanks in advance!

AJ I am in the UK and all diesels here have some sort of starting aid fitted from new,we don't have many Case machines with their own engine,the old Case backhoes had a David Brown engine and the latest have a Cummins,both have a glow plug in the manifold,you would hold the button down for about 30 seconds in the cold weather,its a very fine line with the temperature whether they will start without the heat or not.Dave if the timing is late it would cause bad starting,if you have a look at the pump and see an arrow on it to indicate the direction that the shaft turns inside,mark where it is now then loosen the mounting bolts and move the body of the pump the opposite way to advance the timing as you may have a little play in the timing gears an 1/16" can make a big difference.Redranch your problem of it running rough after starting could be that the injectors need servicing,a nozzle needle could be sticking when cold and frees out when it warms up.It often helps with a diesel starting in the morning to run it at a steady speed say 1000rpm with all lights/heater etc off for a few minutes before you stop it,this will bring the battery up to full charge,when you stop it,if you have a pull stop return it to the run position and put the throttle on full.hope this is of some help to you guys. Good luck.

Dave Whitcomb AJ - Thanks for taking the time to respond!
c hess Unusual to hear of hard starting engines . Right from factory i think they were better than most. So i am wandering if most have been overhauled an have had valves ground which would lower compression an cause hard starting. Also if overhauled could head gasket be of different thickness than origional?? Just a thought
Dave Whitcomb Mine seems to start OK when the temperature is over 60 degrees.
When I did the motor, I installed new pistons, rings, sleeves, and had a local machine shop do a complete valve job and slightly shave the head. The engine gastet set was aftermarket, but everything appeared to match up to factory. I had acquired a different injector pump that was supposedly "just rebuilt" and used that instead of the original. When I installed the pump, I tried to use the pointer over the flywheel to set TDC and it looked like it was possibly bent or rusted enough to make me question its accuracy. This is why I question the pump timing.

c hess I think i would pull injectors an check cranking cylinder pressure. You need proper tools an specks(psi) iF ok have shop check injectors for cracking pressure an leak off. If ok you will have to have diesel shop check pump for proper output.Do this after you are sure of pump timing -valve clearance an other simple things Somewhere in responses i think those with hard starting problems will find problem. .

Redranch Mine was just supposedly overhauled when I got it. About a year later the the head gasket went out between the cylinders. Guess they didnt retighten the head. Any way it had new valves in it. I replaced the injectors at that time. I retimed the pump but maybe that is the problem cause it sure doesnt start good cold but good warm. I run 2 batterys also. I adjusted the valves. Still thinking its the pump timing. If i remember the book says tdc.
chess Just wondering how you guys are making out. i have a 830 that use to start really good than because used wrong oil ( had carbon build up on intake valve an it would miss after warmed up ) tore it down an only cleaned it -used genuine case an it doesnt start as good since dont know why- use ether since 50 degrees or so. i am no able to get speck book for your tractors but acouple of you talk about {tdc) my question is my 830 is set at 31 or 33 degrees .this is where i line up marks on pump. are you sure of timing? maybe some one can fill us in . Also would like to know cranking cylinder psi of any of your tractors an what is proper psi ?
c hess Hello Are you able to tell how to time pump on hard starting tractors. i am not but am wondering about (tdc the talk about since my 830 is timed at 33 btdc) Just wandering . CANT HAVE HARD STARTING CASE TRACTORS!!
AJ I don't have a book and as I said in the previous post I am not familiar with the Case made engine,however the injection pump timing is normally well before TDC on every thing else,if anyone has the book it would be worth making sure that the timing is correct.

c hess Roger from Mi on other forum sent this. Compression @ 200 cranking rpm should be400 PSI. PUMP SHOULD BE TIMED 4DEG BTDC. YOU CAN READ HOW TO CHECK BY VISITING OTHER DISCUSSION FORUM . Hope this helps . keep us informed
Dave Whitcomb I have the service manual for the tractor at home. If I recall, the injector pump is setup by setting cylinder #1 at TDC on the compression stroke - at this point the pointer on the engine and the hash mark on the flywheel should be aligned. The 8 degrees BTDC (I think its 8 degrees) is adjusted by moving the pump until the pointer on the pump housing and the hash mark on the pump shaft align.
The problem I had was that the pointer on the engine for the flywheel is either bent, rusted, or the tip is broken off (I can't remember which) so getting it perfectly on TDC is tough.
Anyway, I've always questioned the accuracy of the pump timing. I haven't managed to find the time to mess with it and I probably won't for another week or two. When I get some new information, I'll be sure to post it. If messing with the pump timing doesn't work, I'll try a compression test but I was hoping to not have to pull the injectors.

Thanks for the input everyone!

Dave Whitcomb Wen I get home tonight, I check the manual for the pump timing info and double check the specs on compression. I'll post the specs tomorrow morning.
gene c. i have a jd 310 backhoe i was running it just fine shut it down to eat lunch and it would not start when i returned an hour later. checked fuel was low but not empty re fueled anyway still to no availgetting fuel all thru pump, filter, and lines all the way to to injector pump tried ethet still will not crank can anyone help me please.

thank you

Ray Andrews Hi, I have a 580C which I failed to start for
several months (8-9) and when I attempted to
start the unit it would start and run for about
3 minutes or less and stop. I could re-start it
and it would run for a few minutes and stop. I
changed both filters and bleed the system an it
only runs for about 30 seconds or less and stops.
Any ideas...I do not think the injectors are
dirty. When I replaced the secondary fuel filter
the fuel was real clean..

howard i have a 71 international dv 560 v-8 .its hard to start i have to crank it for at least 4 minutes .and when i do get it started it runs fine but has lots of white exhaust .then i shut it off. and when i return in and hour or so it hard to start again any 1 know what causes this . this has an electric feed fump that pumps fuel to the diesel pump so i know its getting fuel there ????

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